betweensunandmoon: (Default)
[personal profile] betweensunandmoon
I created my first Spotify playlist in honor of Raoul and Christine, and felt like inflicting my bizarre taste in music on you.
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[personal profile] igenlode
Another thing Leroux-Raoul gets accused of is of trying to 'tie Christine down' and 'stifle her voice' by marrying her (whereas Erik's love is presumably setting her free from convention so that she can soar into song). A lot of this seems to be based on the scene where she tells him angrily that she is "mistress of her own actions" Read more... )
In the context of Christine's statement, what Raoul is actually asking of her at this point is to consent to the promise that Madame Valerius has repeatedly begged of her during this scene, namely never to leave the old lady again (and go off to visit the Angel of Music). Christine has so far evaded this, not least presumably because she knows she is going to *have* to go back to Erik when he summons her. When Raoul chimes in, it is in a quasi-paternal tone ("we shall ask no questions if you will engage to put yourself under our protection") which understandably gets Christine's back right up: he literally has no right to associate himself with her mother like that as her protector. He is no relative of hers at all, and the law gives him no authority where she is concerned. Hence the outburst about husbands, since Christine has no surviving male relatives!Read more... )
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[personal profile] igenlode
In the book Raoul is certainly not a pompous, wealthy figure (or for that matter in the musical). I think what fans tend to forget is that from Raoul's point of view, title, wealth, possessions etc. are nothing special; he has always had them, and they have never made him particularly happy. He isn't some footballer who measures his worth by the fact that he once earned a hundred pounds a week and is now paid twenty thousand a week, and waves this achievement in girls' faces. Raoul was *born* into an ancient family, yet the happiest time in his childhood -- and quite possibly his whole life -- was when he was chattering to Breton peasants in the company of Christine. Read more... )
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[personal profile] betweensunandmoon
It's not just that I prefer Raoul and identify more with Raoul than with Erik, though that is part of it. I wouldn't ship Erik and Christine even if there were no Raoul at all because the relationship is so very obviously unhealthy for both of them. It surprises and worries me that so many people seem willing to overlook that.
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[personal profile] igenlode
The Phantom of the Opera: A Case Study of Severe Major Depressive Disorder with Psychotic Features - no, not the Phantom, but Christine! In this medical study, the Phantom is presented as a hallucinatory response to the stress of Christine's bereavement and her feelings for Raoul, which 'ground her' and combat her suicidal ideation -- "The candle flame which earlier represented her father's hold on Christine now becomes a means of breaking that pathological bond. Her ability to make her father's soul take flight allows Christine to give herself to Raoul" ;-D
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[personal profile] erimia
Found on ancientphantom's tumblr. Both pictures are zine covers, both are from the 1990s and both are quite unusual portrayals of Raoul.

Raoul and Christine on the cover art for the issue 1 of POTO: The Phantom of the Opera Magazine, artist Sharon Young

This is the cover for the issue 1 of POTO: The Phantom of the Opera Magazine, by the artist Sharon Young. Probably the first time I've seen a Raoul with a beard. He also looks a great deal older than Raouls usually are, and so does this Christine. Not sure if those are portraits of actors from the musical or not.

Raoul and Christine on the back cover art of The Chandelier #7, artist Sybille Schenk

The back cover art by Sybille Schenk for the issue 7 of The Chandelier, the zine that was published mostly in German. Again, I don't know if those are meant to be actors from the musical but it's quite possible. It may be an early example of a long-haired Raoul, a trope that I thought had appeared only after the 2004 movie, but apparently not.
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[personal profile] igenlode
The narrator of "The Phantom of the Opera" claims as supporting 'evidence' for his story that he found the initials RC among those left on the wall of the Communards' dungeon where Erik imprisoned Raoul. But unless Raoul was a very quick worker (and if we are to believe Erik's story, the young man was at best semi-conscious when he was taken to be chained up in the dungeon: le parfum de Mazenderan l'avait rendu mou comme une chiffe) he simply didn't have time to make any such carving.

Erik tells the Persian that, having made certain Raoul was in a place where no-one could hear any cries for help, he returned to the side of Christine, who was waiting for him. Then they go through all the forehead kissing business and weep together, and as a sign of his changed intentions towards her Erik goes off to fetch Raoul on the spot. Raoul can't have been in the dungeon for any longer than the time of that tearful interview (and was presumably still fairly groggy from 'le parfum de Mazenderan' when he was removed from it!)

He could just about have managed to draw his initials faintly on the wall with some rough object, I suppose. He certainly couldn't have managed the sort of carving you see on the walls of the Tower of London. I've tried adding my own initials to the parapet of a slate bridge alongside hundreds of others, and was seriously impressed by the time and workmanship displayed by the Victorians in contrast to our own efforts, which would have washed/brushed away in a couple of days -- and that was soft slate. Even the relatively plain WWII initials represented some soldier sitting down with his pocket-knife and an hour or so to spare on a sunny afternoon, rather than simply scratching over and over again with a bit of stone.

Given that the dungeon walls were underground and not exposed to any weathering, I suppose a rough whitish scratch might have survived thirty years for the narrator to find it -- though it's hard to imagine that it would be visible alongside carvings made by prisoners with endless days on their hands. But under the circumstances, to be honest, it's hard to imagine Raoul quietly sitting down and setting out to write his name on the walls immediately after he'd been chained up in the depths of the Opera (quite possibly without light, unless Erik was feeling generous). It's the sort of thing you do when you're reconciled to a long imprisonment and are looking for occupation, not in the first moments of desperation, with the woman you've risked your life to rescue being subjected to unknown degradations at the hands of your mutual captor...

Frankly, I think Leroux had lost track of the timeline. Not for the first time :-p
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[personal profile] igenlode
I've just been through twenty-two pages of the top POTO fanfics (as sorted by number of favourites), and it turns out that in over five hundred stories there is not one RC fic in there. Unless you count the two where Raoul is dead and a broken Christine ends up with the Phantom.

I wasn't expecting the majority of the favourite fics in the fandom to be anything other than EC, but I did expect some to show up. (Surely "Phantoms of the Past", with 128 favourites, must have been in there? Oh, of course, it's M-rated, and I didn't adjust the filters...)
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[personal profile] igenlode
After spending a long time looking at the ins and outs of French law of this era, which incidentally revealed that the age at which a young man could legally get married without permission from the head of the household was twenty-six, not twenty-one -- presumably why Raoul needs his older brother's consent and can't just marry Christine out of hand -- and that the major part of a marriage celebration in 19th-century France concerned the signing of the contracts, not the church service, since unlike in England a religious marriage wasn't actually legally valid (people tended to do both), I noticed that what Leroux actually says about Raoul and Christine at the end of the book is simply that they "went to search out a priest in some secluded spot". Presumably in order to get married.

Which is to say that Raoul, who can have had no idea that his brother was dead, had apparently decided to give up on any idea of getting legal permission for a valid marriage under French law, and was happy to go off and cohabit with Christine in a union that might have been recognised by God but certainly wouldn't have been recognised by the French State if they had ever returned ;-p

(Apart from the fact that in fact Philippe was dead, courtesy of Erik's siren-guarded lake, and that the question of when exactly Raoul and Christine left the country and when they learned of the Comte's death and Erik's death respectively is one of the chronological details about which Leroux is very confused...)
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[personal profile] igenlode
This is the story I vaguely remembered but couldn't track down again when discussing authors who liked to write about Raoul 'suffering beautifully' -- not a particularly common trope.

Puzzle Pieces by lourdesmont

It's an epic if somewhat amateurish saga that is typical of its era of the fandom -- the difference is that it was an R/C story amidst a sea of fiction about E/C's tortured relationship. I'm not sure I can honestly include it as a fic rec (for the same reasons that it never made it into my favourites or my R/C community), but it is a landmark of its day.

(Although having just been writing and researching the train service from Paris to Lyon and Dijon, I can't help finding myself now wincing at chapter 3, in which our protagonists travel cross-country on a sleeper service for three days in order to reach Lyon -- I came across a similar episode in a "Frozen" story where the characters spend days on a nonstop train journey from the North of England to London, a trip that could be made in a matter of hours as early as 1848. I think US authors tend to mentally picture 19th century European railways on the scale of the American continent.)
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[personal profile] igenlode
During the doomed performance of "Faust", immediately before the toad episode, there's a moment when Christine, singing the role of Marguerite's young suitor Siebel, looks up and notices Raoul sitting in the Chagny box. Her voice immediately loses its assurance and crystalline clarity and becomes nervous and dull (and Raoul tries to hide his tears by burying his face in his hands).

Why does seeing Raoul have this effect? The previous time they had seen each other was when Christine was nursing Raoul out of his fit of hypothermia at Perros-Guirec, after which she vanishes without saying goodbye and sends him a letter to say that they can never meet again.

Is it the sight of Raoul's distress that affects Christine's singing, or is it the spectacle of Christine's botched performance that causes Raoul's distress? I think I've seen this scene cited in the past as evidence that Erik inspires Christine to perform to greater heights, while Raoul actually sabotages her by his mere presence :-p
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[personal profile] igenlode
To anyone who was interested in Kim Newman's Angels of Music crossover between Charlie's Angels, "Phantom of the Opera" and just about every pulp fiction you can think of written or set in the 19th century:

I discovered that somebody has uploaded what appears to be a pirated copy of the text of the entire novel (so far as I could check against the Google Books preview) onto fanfiction.net as a POTO/Sherlock Holmes crossover https://www.fanfiction.net/s/12890290/1/Read more... )
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[personal profile] igenlode
I was thinking about the 'Gothic' Erik-represents-adult-sexuality, Raoul-represents-safe-platonic-love analysis, and -- although it doesn't really bear one way or the other on the argument -- it struck me that while Christine famously allows Erik to kiss her as his redemptive moment (and enchants him by not dying in the process), there is actually a much earlier kiss in the book. Christine actually asks Raoul to kiss her -- she makes the first move, when he would have held back -- which is of course an extremely transgressive liberated adult act in the context of the world they live in. Thus demonstrating yet again that she is the stronger character out of the two of them.

Christine with a spine, indeed.
betweensunandmoon: (Default)
[personal profile] betweensunandmoon
Revenge on AO3 theorizes that Love Never Dies was actually an intentional parody of bad fanfiction.

It's an immensely comforting thought.
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[personal profile] betweensunandmoon
Raoul in badfic: A drunken man-whore who treats everyone around him terribly, especially Christine. This apparently makes him oh-so-repulsive.

Erik in The Last First Kiss: A drunken man-whore who treats everyone around him terribly, especially Christine. This apparently makes him oh-so-desirable.

Surely I'm not the only one who sees a problem with this?
betweensunandmoon: (Default)
[personal profile] betweensunandmoon
Would Raoul be nearly as unpopular with the fandom if he hadn't ended up with Christine?
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[personal profile] igenlode
"Love Never Dies" is a tragedy -- and that's not inherently wrong (although tough on the fans, not to mention the characters); a lot of operas are tragedies. "The Phantom of the Opera" can be seen as a tragedy if you're looking at it and weeping over the poor heartbroken deserted Phantom.

But as I've said elsewhere, the problem with the plot is not necessarily the fact that Christine dies. It's not that Raoul gets tricked into abandoning his wife in the clutches of her adulterous (and murderous) lover, an act which results more or less directly in her death -- in the hands of a Puccini or a Verdi, that could be the stuff of the most heart-rending grief and remorse -- but that this is presented as being an act so self-evidently right and inevitable that it gets taken for granted and nobody ever mentions it again.

It's a tragedy... but it's not a tragedy that the Phantom gets Christine killed and then takes her son. It's a tragedy that when he thrusts his way by force majeure into the middle of a marriage that neither of the couple shows any indication of wanting to leave, for all their unhappiness with its current state, he then messes up the attempt at reconciliation prompted by his actions.

Basically, he destroys Christine's family -- a family that we see her making considerable efforts to hold together. And then in his own selfishness he destroys her, leaving the rest of that family devastated. And then we're told that he is the one we ought to be feeling sorry for, and whom Gustave should magically love...
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[personal profile] betweensunandmoon
www.broadwaybox.com/daily-scoop/six-ways-prove-raoul-iphantom-operai-ultimate-boyfriend/

What’s sexier than a brave man willing to dive headfirst into danger for the one he loves?

Nothing, my good article-writer, nothing. :D
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[personal profile] betweensunandmoon
I was looking up movie stills as research for the Sue-parody I'm writing, and I came across a shot of Raoul and Christine dancing together and smiling at each other during "Masquerade." I also remember her smiling at him when he lifted her into the air during "All I Ask of You."

Times in the movie that Christine looked genuinely happy to be with Raoul: At least two.
Times in the movie that Christine looked genuinely happy to be with the Phantom: I can't recall any.
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